Comments on: In CT Why Waste Your Vote on Obama? http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/ Hartford Independent Media Collective - your real alternative for news and views in central CT Tue, 17 May 2011 15:27:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: kevin http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-92 kevin Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:07:50 +0000 http://hartfordimc.org/?p=941#comment-92 i've only been skimming through this comment thread, so forgive me if i missed something. My opinion is that the label "Uncle Tom" is not racist, but certainly has racial overtones. In other words, people generally don't use it for non-black people. The odd thing is when it's used by someone who is not black. I know black people who use it all the time - pointing out other black people who they perceive as essentially selling out their own people (you hear the term "tommin'" a lot). It's way more common (and therefore innocuous) than a lot of white people think. In some ways, it's almost like the "n-word" to a lot of whites - forbidden diction. The difference between the n-word and Uncle Tom, however, is that I don't see UT as taboo for non-black people to say. i’ve only been skimming through this comment thread, so forgive me if i missed something. My opinion is that the label “Uncle Tom” is not racist, but certainly has racial overtones. In other words, people generally don’t use it for non-black people. The odd thing is when it’s used by someone who is not black. I know black people who use it all the time – pointing out other black people who they perceive as essentially selling out their own people (you hear the term “tommin’” a lot). It’s way more common (and therefore innocuous) than a lot of white people think. In some ways, it’s almost like the “n-word” to a lot of whites – forbidden diction. The difference between the n-word and Uncle Tom, however, is that I don’t see UT as taboo for non-black people to say.

]]> By: jim http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-84 jim Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:21:22 +0000 http://hartfordimc.org/?p=941#comment-84 Kevin, Good point. So, what to you think? Is it racist to call someone an Uncle Tom? Kevin,
Good point. So, what to you think? Is it racist to call someone an Uncle Tom?

]]> By: jim http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-83 jim Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:10:37 +0000 http://hartfordimc.org/?p=941#comment-83 Okay, Peter, we're both preaching, but don't be revising my sermons. I never said Uncle Tom had nothing to do with race. Let's add arbiter of all things hip to your resume too. Okay, Peter, we’re both preaching, but don’t be revising my sermons. I never said Uncle Tom had nothing to do with race.

Let’s add arbiter of all things hip to your resume too.

]]> By: kevin http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-82 kevin Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:02:38 +0000 http://hartfordimc.org/?p=941#comment-82 just want to point out that Nader is of Lebanese descent (the son of Lebanese immigrants), so we should be careful about simply labeling him a "white" man. I bring this up to remind everyone that all of these racial/ethnic constructions are always more complex than we think. just want to point out that Nader is of Lebanese descent (the son of Lebanese immigrants), so we should be careful about simply labeling him a “white” man. I bring this up to remind everyone that all of these racial/ethnic constructions are always more complex than we think.

]]> By: Peter G http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-81 Peter G Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:33:42 +0000 http://hartfordimc.org/?p=941#comment-81 "You presume to be the arbiter of all things racist" LOL, this from the man who has been preaching to us about what is and is not racist, who first insisted that the term "Uncle Tom" had nothing to do with race and now is pitifully relying on his hipness - "Can we get a brotha to weigh in on this" - to bail himself out. “You presume to be the arbiter of all things racist”

LOL, this from the man who has been preaching to us about what is and is not racist, who first insisted that the term “Uncle Tom” had nothing to do with race and now is pitifully relying on his hipness – “Can we get a brotha to weigh in on this” – to bail himself out.

]]> By: jim http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-80 jim Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:13:44 +0000 http://hartfordimc.org/?p=941#comment-80 No, I do think words matter and I think they should be used precisely. And what pisses me off is how words such as racist, fascist, etc. get thrown around. What we have here is a disagreement over definitions, as well as your presumption that I'm equating the suffering of one group with another's oppression. You presume to be the arbiter of all things racist. And you presume to be the judge of who is entitled to say certain words. And, if I'm not mistaken, you sort of called me a racist. Somehow, coming from you, it doesn't have the sting that a brother saying it would. What started this was Uncle Tom. I'd love to know if Obama thinks it's a racist epithet. Can we get a brotha to weigh in on this? Is it not cool to call someone an Uncle Tom? I think me and the other cranky white dude are about finished. No, I do think words matter and I think they should be used precisely. And what pisses me off is how words such as racist, fascist, etc. get thrown around.
What we have here is a disagreement over definitions, as well as your presumption that I’m equating the suffering of one group with another’s oppression. You presume to be the arbiter of all things racist. And you presume to be the judge of who is entitled to say certain words. And, if I’m not mistaken, you sort of called me a racist. Somehow, coming from you, it doesn’t have the sting that a brother saying it would.
What started this was Uncle Tom. I’d love to know if Obama thinks it’s a racist epithet.
Can we get a brotha to weigh in on this? Is it not cool to call someone an Uncle Tom? I think me and the other cranky white dude are about finished.

]]> By: Peter G http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-79 Peter G Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:25:20 +0000 http://hartfordimc.org/?p=941#comment-79 The notion that non-racist speech would be insipid and innocuous suggests that racism is defensible because somehow (no one ever explains how, exactly) it makes human interaction more interesting. That's as much bull as the bigoted pedants who use to preach about how horrible it was that "homosexuals" had taken over the word "gay" or how outrageous it was that they were being required to use "chairperson" instead of "chairman." Yes, to answer your last question, when Irish-Americans start to pretend that in 2008 they are entitled to use the n-word to describe themselves because they can't acknowledge the difference between having suffered a generation of discrimination a century ago and suffering four hundred years of vicious and brutal oppression, as African-Americans have and do, then it's racist. But why should it matter to you, since words obviously are so unimportant? Perhaps it's because only others' words are unimportant to you. The notion that non-racist speech would be insipid and innocuous suggests that racism is defensible because somehow (no one ever explains how, exactly) it makes human interaction more interesting. That’s as much bull as the bigoted pedants who use to preach about how horrible it was that “homosexuals” had taken over the word “gay” or how outrageous it was that they were being required to use “chairperson” instead of “chairman.”

Yes, to answer your last question, when Irish-Americans start to pretend that in 2008 they are entitled to use the n-word to describe themselves because they can’t acknowledge the difference between having suffered a generation of discrimination a century ago and suffering four hundred years of vicious and brutal oppression, as African-Americans have and do, then it’s racist.

But why should it matter to you, since words obviously are so unimportant? Perhaps it’s because only others’ words are unimportant to you.

]]> By: jim http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-78 jim Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:30:42 +0000 http://hartfordimc.org/?p=941#comment-78 Peter, That's right, we do have this same argument, and neither of us is budging, are we? Check Gannon's original comment, she wrote Nader was racist. Are we going to dither over the article "a", as in "a racist? That's what I took her to mean. My problem is with people who examine every word for evidence of evilness. I'd have no problem with someone criticizing Nader or anyone else using the term Uncle Tom for being insensitive, for using a term that is hurtful. I don't deny it is a racially charged phrase. But I don't think using this term makes a person a racist. It is shorthand for describing a real situation. I bet George Carlin would agree with me. I'll go so far as claim that George was as concerned as me that some people want to clean up others' speech so that we'll all sound as innocuous and insipid as Barney the Purple Dinosaur. Way back when, the Irish used to be called white niggers and African Americans were called smoked Irishmen. If I call a fellow mick a white nigger down at the Hibernian club, does that make me a racist? What it seems to come down to is you think Nader should apologize for a racist comment and I think he should apologize for poor choice of words. As for my opinion of Nader, I think he's a cranky old man sometimes. Peter,
That’s right, we do have this same argument, and neither of us is budging, are we?
Check Gannon’s original comment, she wrote Nader was racist. Are we going to dither over the article “a”, as in “a racist? That’s what I took her to mean.
My problem is with people who examine every word for evidence of evilness. I’d have no problem with someone criticizing Nader or anyone else using the term Uncle Tom for being insensitive, for using a term that is hurtful. I don’t deny it is a racially charged phrase. But I don’t think using this term makes a person a racist. It is shorthand for describing a real situation. I bet George Carlin would agree with me. I’ll go so far as claim that George was as concerned as me that some people want to clean up others’ speech so that we’ll all sound as innocuous and insipid as Barney the Purple Dinosaur.
Way back when, the Irish used to be called white niggers and African Americans were called smoked Irishmen. If I call a fellow mick a white nigger down at the Hibernian club, does that make me a racist?
What it seems to come down to is you think Nader should apologize for a racist comment and I think he should apologize for poor choice of words. As for my opinion of Nader, I think he’s a cranky old man sometimes.

]]> By: Peter G http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-77 Peter G Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:57:16 +0000 http://hartfordimc.org/?p=941#comment-77 So here's the way that this conversation always goes....and I mean it freakin' ALWAYS goes this way. Someone calls a person, a politician, a journalist, or whomever on a public statement that they made. The existence of the statement is indisputable. And so someone says "Hey, that's a racist statement." And immediately the game starts: "No, that's not racist . . . it was taken out of context." "No, that's not racist . . . black people say it too." "No, that's not racist . . . and anyway I (a white person) would rather that he say what he really thinks than hide it." "No, that's not racist . . . it's just a figure of speech." "No, that's not racist . . . and anyway black people (or latinos, or whomever the relevant group is) say even worse things about themselves . . . or about white people." And when we have sorted out and responded to every single one of those distractions, misstatements and falsehoods, then it comes: "No, he is not A RACIST." No one in this entire discussion called Ralph Nader a racist. A couple of us said that his use of the phrase "Uncle Tom" was racist. That is, he made a racist statement. And guess freakin' what . . . I've made racist statements before and people have called me on it and I've learned from it and apologized for it and I've lived to tell the tale. But for some reason that utterly escapes me, the majority of so-called liberal and progressive people in this country can't accept that they may have said something that's wrong, just plain wrong, irredeemably and stupidly wrong. They can't accept or take responsibility for the possibility that they may have said something that they should have known was racist, and even if they didn't know well guess what they've just learned something, the statement is racist. So Jim why can't you come down off your freakin' high horse and stop making up a lot of crap about Nader's statement (you've written at least three different, contradictory "interpretations" so far) and just acknowledge that Yes, Ralph Nader is not God and it is at least possible that when he used a phrase that everyone in the English-speaking world understands is a racially charged phrase he did so because he either ignorantly thought it was okay for him to do that or because - like a lot of us white folks - he thought it was okay for him to say it because, hey, he's not a racist so he can say whatever he likes. Because no one said Nader IS a racist, all we said was that his statement is a racist statement and he needs to take responsibility for it, just like you need to take responsibility for your insistence that it is somehow impossible for a "good" white man to utter racist words. So here’s the way that this conversation always goes….and I mean it freakin’ ALWAYS goes this way.

Someone calls a person, a politician, a journalist, or whomever on a public statement that they made. The existence of the statement is indisputable. And so someone says “Hey, that’s a racist statement.” And immediately the game starts:

“No, that’s not racist . . . it was taken out of context.”

“No, that’s not racist . . . black people say it too.”

“No, that’s not racist . . . and anyway I (a white person) would rather that he say what he really thinks than hide it.”

“No, that’s not racist . . . it’s just a figure of speech.”

“No, that’s not racist . . . and anyway black people (or latinos, or whomever the relevant group is) say even worse things about themselves . . . or about white people.”

And when we have sorted out and responded to every single one of those distractions, misstatements and falsehoods, then it comes:

“No, he is not A RACIST.”

No one in this entire discussion called Ralph Nader a racist. A couple of us said that his use of the phrase “Uncle Tom” was racist. That is, he made a racist statement.

And guess freakin’ what . . . I’ve made racist statements before and people have called me on it and I’ve learned from it and apologized for it and I’ve lived to tell the tale.

But for some reason that utterly escapes me, the majority of so-called liberal and progressive people in this country can’t accept that they may have said something that’s wrong, just plain wrong, irredeemably and stupidly wrong. They can’t accept or take responsibility for the possibility that they may have said something that they should have known was racist, and even if they didn’t know well guess what they’ve just learned something, the statement is racist.

So Jim why can’t you come down off your freakin’ high horse and stop making up a lot of crap about Nader’s statement (you’ve written at least three different, contradictory “interpretations” so far) and just acknowledge that Yes, Ralph Nader is not God and it is at least possible that when he used a phrase that everyone in the English-speaking world understands is a racially charged phrase he did so because he either ignorantly thought it was okay for him to do that or because – like a lot of us white folks – he thought it was okay for him to say it because, hey, he’s not a racist so he can say whatever he likes.

Because no one said Nader IS a racist, all we said was that his statement is a racist statement and he needs to take responsibility for it, just like you need to take responsibility for your insistence that it is somehow impossible for a “good” white man to utter racist words.

]]> By: jim http://hartfordimc.org/2008/10/30/in-ct-why-waste-your-vote-on-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-76 jim Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:53:03 +0000 http://hartfordimc.org/?p=941#comment-76 Gannon, I think we have different definitions of what a racist is. Yes, Pat Buchanan, in my opinion, is a racist. I don't think Ralph Nader is a racist. He said a rude, hurtful thing, an incredibly stupid thing. Racist is a term that gets thrown around with great abandon, along with sexist, fascist, nazi, anti-semite. Sometimes it fits. Many times it's inaccurate. There are other pejoratives out there, apple, coconut, Jafacain, that refer to people trying to act like something they are not, or who turn their back on their heritage. It's another way of saying wannabe white, wannabe Jamaican, wannabe whatever. Maybe Nadar should have said Obama has a choice between doing the right thing and joining the capitalist oppressors. As for Buchanan, he'd think that Obama being an Uncle Tom is a good thing. Gannon,
I think we have different definitions of what a racist is. Yes, Pat Buchanan, in my opinion, is a racist. I don’t think Ralph Nader is a racist. He said a rude, hurtful thing, an incredibly stupid thing.
Racist is a term that gets thrown around with great abandon, along with sexist, fascist, nazi, anti-semite. Sometimes it fits. Many times it’s inaccurate. There are other pejoratives out there, apple, coconut, Jafacain, that refer to people trying to act like something they are not, or who turn their back on their heritage. It’s another way of saying wannabe white, wannabe Jamaican, wannabe whatever. Maybe Nadar should have said Obama has a choice between doing the right thing and joining the capitalist oppressors. As for Buchanan, he’d think that Obama being an Uncle Tom is a good thing.

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